Co-authors of My lobotomy, Howard Dully and Charles Fleming. (To enlarge pictures, click on them.)Note: If you enjoy this interview let me know by leaving a comment. I would love to interview more writers, especially memoirists, if you feel my doing so is worthwhile.
Interview, Part II
Polly Kahl: I wanted to tell you a little bit about why your book affected me so greatly, okay?
Howard Dully: All right.
PK: I’m fifty three and I grew up with hippie parents in the 1960s. My mom is mentally ill and both of my parents were alcoholic, and then in 1965 my parents started smoking pot and they became hippies. Because of all that there were always a lot of people hanging around our house. We lived in a large house, like the house that you had with five fireplaces, only ours had seven fireplaces and seven bedrooms and it was a twenty one room house. It was really beautiful, but as my parents got into drugs it started falling apart. We always had people living with us, like one time for two years we had a heroin addict living with us because he was hiding from the FBI because he was a draft dodger, and the FBI made an example of him so he was on their ten most wanted list. So on the one hand he was living with us, and on the other hand his picture was in the post office.
HD: Wow.
PK: So it was pretty wild, and also, because of all that, once they started doing drugs there was no difference between children and adults, so there was a lot of sexual activity between adults and children, or what we now know is sexual abuse. At the time it wasn’t considered sexual abuse because that term hadn’t been invented yet, but now of course we know that this is incest and sexual abuse.
HD: Yeah.
PK: So what I loved about your book, Howard, was that even though we had different experiences, when I read the feelings in your book, I was reading my own feelings. I think that when you’re a child and you’re taken advantage of or neglected or abused, the feelings are the same even though the circumstances may be different. So when I read your book I really related to it and it really touched me emotionally.
HD: I understand. When I did a lot of the interviews on the road, we seemed to have the same connections with other people even though their experiences weren’t the same. They seemed to feel that people who have gone through something like this and had part of their childhoods stolen or taken from them all have this similar pain. It doesn’t much matter how it was taken from you: The fact that it was taken from you leaves a big hole in your life.
PK: That’s exactly right. And similar to your story, the way I worked my own recovery was that I went back and interviewed people in my childhood, and I went back to that twenty one room house that we moved from when I was thirteen, and I went back to that little town in Massachusetts where I grew up and talked with parents of childhood friends and asked them what they saw about our house, and I also even went back and interviewed a person who sexually abused me, so I went back and put the pieces together, similar to how you put the pieces together.
HD: How did that interview go? That must have been a very sitting-on-the-edge-of-your-seat kind of interview.
PK: It was kind of strange because he was one of the people who lived with us when I was young, and at the time that he lived with us he told me that he loved me, when I was about twelve at the time and he was twenty six, and then he had intercourse with me when I was about fourteen and he was about twenty eight, and because I loved him and he loved me and was gentle with me, somehow I thought of him differently than my other abusers. So I knew that I loved him and I knew that this strange thing had happened, but I wasn’t quite clear on what it was. And then when I interviewed him, he offered to me that it was sexual abuse, and he offered to me an apology, so it wasn’t like I was confronting him, it was like he offered me the gift of apology, and because of that it was a very healing experience for me.
HD: Yeah, I think that was kind of what I was looking for too, but that didn’t happen. And I was trying to say to Dave Isay and the other people at the radio show that if we had to kind of manipulate or force him to say he’s sorry or something, it’s not really valid.
PK: Exactly.
HD: It has to be something on his own, that he wants to do on his own.
PK: Yes. I spent years trying to get my parents to take responsibility, and you know what? They just don’t get it. And you know what, Howard? They’re not going to get it.
HD: Yeah well, they can’t get it now.
PK: No, and my father has passed too, but you’re right, if they don’t offer it, there’s no point in squeezing it out of them because it’s meaningless anyway.
HD: Yeah. I think that’s the reality of it all. It took me a while to realize that. The games that we play with people to get them to feel sorry or say they’re sorry or something, it’s really kind of ridiculous. If they don’t feel that way to begin with, then all that means nothing, you know?
PK: Yes, that’s right. I’ve actually gotten people to apologize to me for different things, but because I manipulated an apology or demanded one, it wasn’t really coming from their heart, and so it wasn’t satisfying anyway.
HD: Yeah, really, really. I agree. I think in my interview with my father, if you noticed, the emotions were actually on my side of the fence.
PK: Yes, I did.
HD: I had a lot of emotions, and he didn’t really seem to have them. I think maybe I should be satisfied with the fact that I can still feel, and maybe he couldn’t, you know?
PK: I totally agree, and I also think that no matter what happened to you, it’s a testament to your spirit that you can still afford to feel and be the good person you are, and it’s a shame that he couldn’t afford to do that, but it makes you a very unique and special person.
HD: To me, I think the difference was that, to me, blood was thicker than water, and to my dad I guess it wasn’t. I just couldn’t understand how he could sacrifice his own blood for anything like that. Then he comes along and says he knew there was nothing wrong with me. Well, if you knew there was nothing wrong with me, how could you possibly sign a paper to let them to put spikes in my brain, you know?
PK: It’s very similar to my situation. My parents were not upset that it happened: They were upset that I talked about it.
HD: Yeah, yeah, that’s what happened. I was always told it was our dirty little secret, and I finally said to Dave [Isay,] “You know what I am? The skeleton in my family’s closet.”
[PK laughs.]
HD: So what do I have to worry about? It was great. We all did exactly what you’re doing now. We laughed while we thought about things.
We started all the recordings in the bedroom, of all the radio stuff. That’s when they decided to use my voice to tell my story.
PK: Well you’ve got a great voice. It translates very well on radio.
HD: I keep telling them that they should hire me, my voice is for sale! If they’re willing to fork out the money I’m more than willing to say whatever they want to pay me to.
PK: [laughs]
Well, the good thing about you and me is that we find ways to make our own families, don’t we?
HD: Yeah, and well, I had to realize my dad was not the man on the pedestal that I always put him to be. He was just human, because if he was right like he trained me to always believe he was, then I must’ve been wrong, and I knew I wasn’t wrong, so how could he be right? So finally I worked through that paradox.
PK: It’s hard to give up the fantasy parent, isn’t it?
HD: Yeah, especially when they’re helping to feed into that fantasy.
PK: Oh yeah, or even insisting that the fantasy is true.
HD: Yeah, and I was raised to believe that adults were honorable and doing the right thing, and boy did I find out differently. It took me a while to figure that out, that they’re not all, and in fact very few of them, are above-board.
PK: How has this affected your parenting?
HD: I’ve probably had a little more hands-off with my kids than I normally would’ve. I tried my dad’s attitude with my kids about school is number one. The mom fought me on that all the way, and won out, unfortunately. But my kids still love me and we still see each other. Their mom has passed on. One’s working now and coming around okay. A lot of times it’s hard sometimes because they know my past. They say “Well Dad, you blah blah blah,” and how do you tell them something different?
PK: But you learned from it, so you want them to benefit from what you learned.
HD: That’s what I tell them, but they come out with, “You made your mistakes, now let me make mine.”
PK: And unfortunately, that's all we can do.
HD: Yeah, but they’re coming around okay, and it makes me very proud and happy.
PK: Excellent. You should be very proud and happy, you deserve to be.
Well listen, just let me ask one more question, because you’ve been very patient with me. Is there any advice you can give to writers, like memoirists like me, because right now I’ve finished my memoir and I’m looking for an agent, or anything that you’d like to say to writers in general, or memoirists who want to tell their story, is there any advice you can give or anything like that?
HD: Oh wow, like I would know. Well, you’ve got to stick with your dream.
PK: Are you glad you told your story?
HD: Oh yeah, sure. Sure. It’s been very healing for me. Very healing. I’m not really as famous as one might think. They didn’t put my picture on the cover of the book and stuff like that so I’m not recognized, really. But it is interesting when I am recognized, and it’s not only interesting, sometimes it’s scary, because you don’t know how to respond to it, you’re not used to responding to it.
PK: Howard, you’re six foot seven and three hundred and fifty pounds. I don’t think a stalker is going to attack you.
HD: Oh no, I don’t have that problem.
PK: [laughs]
HD: I’m just taken aback by it, you know?
PK: Well thank you very much for talking with me. I sure do appreciate it.
HD: Oh, it’s my pleasure.
PK: If I were there I’d give you a great big hug. I really think you’re terrific.
HD: Well, thank you, you take care of yourself and good luck.
PK: Thank you Howard, take care, bye bye.
HD: Alrighty, bye bye.
Polly Kahl: I wanted to tell you a little bit about why your book affected me so greatly, okay?
Howard Dully: All right.
PK: I’m fifty three and I grew up with hippie parents in the 1960s. My mom is mentally ill and both of my parents were alcoholic, and then in 1965 my parents started smoking pot and they became hippies. Because of all that there were always a lot of people hanging around our house. We lived in a large house, like the house that you had with five fireplaces, only ours had seven fireplaces and seven bedrooms and it was a twenty one room house. It was really beautiful, but as my parents got into drugs it started falling apart. We always had people living with us, like one time for two years we had a heroin addict living with us because he was hiding from the FBI because he was a draft dodger, and the FBI made an example of him so he was on their ten most wanted list. So on the one hand he was living with us, and on the other hand his picture was in the post office.
HD: Wow.
PK: So it was pretty wild, and also, because of all that, once they started doing drugs there was no difference between children and adults, so there was a lot of sexual activity between adults and children, or what we now know is sexual abuse. At the time it wasn’t considered sexual abuse because that term hadn’t been invented yet, but now of course we know that this is incest and sexual abuse.
HD: Yeah.
PK: So what I loved about your book, Howard, was that even though we had different experiences, when I read the feelings in your book, I was reading my own feelings. I think that when you’re a child and you’re taken advantage of or neglected or abused, the feelings are the same even though the circumstances may be different. So when I read your book I really related to it and it really touched me emotionally.
HD: I understand. When I did a lot of the interviews on the road, we seemed to have the same connections with other people even though their experiences weren’t the same. They seemed to feel that people who have gone through something like this and had part of their childhoods stolen or taken from them all have this similar pain. It doesn’t much matter how it was taken from you: The fact that it was taken from you leaves a big hole in your life.
PK: That’s exactly right. And similar to your story, the way I worked my own recovery was that I went back and interviewed people in my childhood, and I went back to that twenty one room house that we moved from when I was thirteen, and I went back to that little town in Massachusetts where I grew up and talked with parents of childhood friends and asked them what they saw about our house, and I also even went back and interviewed a person who sexually abused me, so I went back and put the pieces together, similar to how you put the pieces together.
HD: How did that interview go? That must have been a very sitting-on-the-edge-of-your-seat kind of interview.
PK: It was kind of strange because he was one of the people who lived with us when I was young, and at the time that he lived with us he told me that he loved me, when I was about twelve at the time and he was twenty six, and then he had intercourse with me when I was about fourteen and he was about twenty eight, and because I loved him and he loved me and was gentle with me, somehow I thought of him differently than my other abusers. So I knew that I loved him and I knew that this strange thing had happened, but I wasn’t quite clear on what it was. And then when I interviewed him, he offered to me that it was sexual abuse, and he offered to me an apology, so it wasn’t like I was confronting him, it was like he offered me the gift of apology, and because of that it was a very healing experience for me.
HD: Yeah, I think that was kind of what I was looking for too, but that didn’t happen. And I was trying to say to Dave Isay and the other people at the radio show that if we had to kind of manipulate or force him to say he’s sorry or something, it’s not really valid.
PK: Exactly.
HD: It has to be something on his own, that he wants to do on his own.
PK: Yes. I spent years trying to get my parents to take responsibility, and you know what? They just don’t get it. And you know what, Howard? They’re not going to get it.
HD: Yeah well, they can’t get it now.
PK: No, and my father has passed too, but you’re right, if they don’t offer it, there’s no point in squeezing it out of them because it’s meaningless anyway.
HD: Yeah. I think that’s the reality of it all. It took me a while to realize that. The games that we play with people to get them to feel sorry or say they’re sorry or something, it’s really kind of ridiculous. If they don’t feel that way to begin with, then all that means nothing, you know?
PK: Yes, that’s right. I’ve actually gotten people to apologize to me for different things, but because I manipulated an apology or demanded one, it wasn’t really coming from their heart, and so it wasn’t satisfying anyway.
HD: Yeah, really, really. I agree. I think in my interview with my father, if you noticed, the emotions were actually on my side of the fence.
PK: Yes, I did.
HD: I had a lot of emotions, and he didn’t really seem to have them. I think maybe I should be satisfied with the fact that I can still feel, and maybe he couldn’t, you know?
PK: I totally agree, and I also think that no matter what happened to you, it’s a testament to your spirit that you can still afford to feel and be the good person you are, and it’s a shame that he couldn’t afford to do that, but it makes you a very unique and special person.
HD: To me, I think the difference was that, to me, blood was thicker than water, and to my dad I guess it wasn’t. I just couldn’t understand how he could sacrifice his own blood for anything like that. Then he comes along and says he knew there was nothing wrong with me. Well, if you knew there was nothing wrong with me, how could you possibly sign a paper to let them to put spikes in my brain, you know?
PK: It’s very similar to my situation. My parents were not upset that it happened: They were upset that I talked about it.
HD: Yeah, yeah, that’s what happened. I was always told it was our dirty little secret, and I finally said to Dave [Isay,] “You know what I am? The skeleton in my family’s closet.”
[PK laughs.]
HD: So what do I have to worry about? It was great. We all did exactly what you’re doing now. We laughed while we thought about things.
We started all the recordings in the bedroom, of all the radio stuff. That’s when they decided to use my voice to tell my story.
PK: Well you’ve got a great voice. It translates very well on radio.
HD: I keep telling them that they should hire me, my voice is for sale! If they’re willing to fork out the money I’m more than willing to say whatever they want to pay me to.
PK: [laughs]
Well, the good thing about you and me is that we find ways to make our own families, don’t we?
HD: Yeah, and well, I had to realize my dad was not the man on the pedestal that I always put him to be. He was just human, because if he was right like he trained me to always believe he was, then I must’ve been wrong, and I knew I wasn’t wrong, so how could he be right? So finally I worked through that paradox.
PK: It’s hard to give up the fantasy parent, isn’t it?
HD: Yeah, especially when they’re helping to feed into that fantasy.
PK: Oh yeah, or even insisting that the fantasy is true.
HD: Yeah, and I was raised to believe that adults were honorable and doing the right thing, and boy did I find out differently. It took me a while to figure that out, that they’re not all, and in fact very few of them, are above-board.
PK: How has this affected your parenting?
HD: I’ve probably had a little more hands-off with my kids than I normally would’ve. I tried my dad’s attitude with my kids about school is number one. The mom fought me on that all the way, and won out, unfortunately. But my kids still love me and we still see each other. Their mom has passed on. One’s working now and coming around okay. A lot of times it’s hard sometimes because they know my past. They say “Well Dad, you blah blah blah,” and how do you tell them something different?
PK: But you learned from it, so you want them to benefit from what you learned.
HD: That’s what I tell them, but they come out with, “You made your mistakes, now let me make mine.”
PK: And unfortunately, that's all we can do.
HD: Yeah, but they’re coming around okay, and it makes me very proud and happy.
PK: Excellent. You should be very proud and happy, you deserve to be.
Well listen, just let me ask one more question, because you’ve been very patient with me. Is there any advice you can give to writers, like memoirists like me, because right now I’ve finished my memoir and I’m looking for an agent, or anything that you’d like to say to writers in general, or memoirists who want to tell their story, is there any advice you can give or anything like that?
HD: Oh wow, like I would know. Well, you’ve got to stick with your dream.
PK: Are you glad you told your story?
HD: Oh yeah, sure. Sure. It’s been very healing for me. Very healing. I’m not really as famous as one might think. They didn’t put my picture on the cover of the book and stuff like that so I’m not recognized, really. But it is interesting when I am recognized, and it’s not only interesting, sometimes it’s scary, because you don’t know how to respond to it, you’re not used to responding to it.
PK: Howard, you’re six foot seven and three hundred and fifty pounds. I don’t think a stalker is going to attack you.
HD: Oh no, I don’t have that problem.
PK: [laughs]
HD: I’m just taken aback by it, you know?
PK: Well thank you very much for talking with me. I sure do appreciate it.
HD: Oh, it’s my pleasure.
PK: If I were there I’d give you a great big hug. I really think you’re terrific.
HD: Well, thank you, you take care of yourself and good luck.
PK: Thank you Howard, take care, bye bye.
HD: Alrighty, bye bye.
~THE END~
Click here for a two minute youtube clip on lobotomy. I hope you enjoyed this two part interview, and if you did please don't forget to leave a comment (or if you didn't, you can let me know that too!)
~Polly
Howard at a book signing in Hollywood, California.
13 comments:
Fascinating bit, Polly. It's especially interesting to read the effect his book had on you.
I'm personally all for you interviewing other memoirists. It helps the other memoir writers out there discover for themselves the effect their words have on others.
Thanks for this.
Polly, soooo cool. What a guy. I agree with Leah, that it was interesting to hear how his story resonated with you. I vote for more memoirist intervies. I didn't really know much about the genre until I met you, and now I think it's very absorbing.
I can't help being struck by how normal Mr. Dully sounds. I can't detect any problems with his thoughts, articulation, etc. I thought lobotomies left a lot more damage. Maybe because he was so young when he had it? I don't know. I'm going to go give one to Kevin as an experiment...
I hadn't thought that it would be that interesting reading about the impact on the reader but now that you've both pointed it out and I think about it, memoirists being impacted by other memoirists in particular is pretty interesting stuff. If I do other interviews I'll focus on this again. Thanks!
I think Howard is pretty unusual in the limited amount of long-term damage that was done. If you look at the video link on this second interview you can see some very severely permanently damaged people. From what I've read, transorbital lobotomy wasn't a very exact science. They just inserted the ice picks into the patients' eye sockets and twisted away to their heart's content, so sometimes minimal damage was done and sometimes, hey, shit happens. Dr. Freeman seemed to be on an almost religious type of quest to perform lobotomies, as Howard aludes to. He knew Howard didn't really need one but he wanted more patients to perform and perfect them on so he found any excuse. This included doing it to people who were exceptionally quirky or nonconformists and, because it was the fifties and early sixties, thousands of women who just wouldn't shut up and behave. (Part of the reason the "psychosurgical" procedure went out of vogue was the introduction of medications like Valium. That'll shut those damn troublemaking women up!) I guess Howard is lucky because the only long-term effect seems to be recurring eye infections, but it never should've happened in the first place. It's miraculous, IMO, that he's the person he is today.
Interesting interview. Thank you! I blogged about lobotomy several months ago. Here's the link:
http://neuropathologyblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/ice-pick-lobotomy.html
Wow. That Dr. Freeman sounds like one evil bastard.
He certainly had his own agenda. It looks to me like he started out with all sincerity, but like many successful professionals his ego took over and his grandiosity took precedence over the patients. Sad, because it resulted in the devastation and loss of many lives.
I guess I should have said "some" successful professional instead of "many." Maybe the more successful, the greater the risk of this kind of thing happening. For some time Dr. freeman was a real star in the field of medicine. He even won a Nobel Peace Prize, so it's not hard to see the basis of his grandiosity.
Wonderful interview, Polly. I don't know how I missed this book, but I won't for long.
Thanks Doreen, you'll love it I'm sure. And hey, how about an interview?
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